00:00 Alan Thornett: I really strongly agree with the contribution that Luke has just made, and I think we ought to start by paying tribute to the Another Europe is Possible campaign, which I think Luke was one of the prime movers of right at the start, because without that campaign we would have been in serious trouble. I mean, it has the limitations that Luke says; on the other hand it meant that there was a serious, rational, radical left remain voice throughout it, which actually expanded its base during the course of the campaign. So I think that was a really, really important achievement.
00:30 We, as Luke said, we wrote this little book in February and published it in March, and I'll just read a couple of paragraphs from it and then draw some conclusions from those paragraphs. "The campaign for exit is entirely a project of the xenophobic right and will play into the hands [?] of racism and anti-migration sentiment in Britain and across Europe. The referendum is an initiative of the right, and it's part of a right-wing agenda. The consequences of a vote for exit at this time and under these conditions would strengthen both the right wing of the Tory party and UKIP, and could even bring about a dangerous realignment between them. It will be taken as a mandate for the introduction of a range of new restrictions on immigration, and not just from the EU. It would also put EU citizens living in Britain in an extremely vulnerable situation." And finally, in our view: "Defining the EU as a reactionary, anti-working-class institution does not mean that we are obliged to vote for exit whatever the circumstances and whatever the consequences. We need to be guided by what best serves the interests of the working class and the best conditions under which to build a fightback against austerity."
02:06 Now, my comment on that is that it's worse. It's actually a lot worse than that. That prediction was on the right lines, but I think, as Luke was saying, it's actually a lot worse. I think that what we're witnessing potentially is the biggest shift to the right in politics in Britain since the accession of Thatcher to government in '79, and possibly long-term consequences of that kind. It may not go that way, but I think that's the potential.
02:37 Racism, as Luke says — racism was worse than we predicted. And also, again as Luke says — I'm sorry, I have to overlap a bit with what Luke is saying, because I need to say it myself — but, you know, as Luke was saying, this wasn't just the racism of Nigel Farage. You know, they were equally racist for most of the campaign, the official Vote Leave campaign. If anybody can remember back to its party political broadcast, it was against the map of Europe, a commentary saying that hordes are coming from everywhere, including Turkey, and arrows from all over Europe pointing into Britain. It was absolutely Enoch Powell level. We've gone back to — they achieved Enoch Powell-level racism in this. And as we said in our statement on this on the SR website, the point about Enoch Powell is that he was removed from the government by Edward Heath for making that speech. This time that level of racism became the norm. It was made respectable. People were allowed to come on and were interviewed, and, oh yeah, it's all the foreigners and everything else, and it was all taken as good coin in the course of it.
04:12 And it's done something really horrible. I think it's set back, you know, social conditions in Britain in terms of racial equality — it set it back for decades, and it's going to be a long struggle to get back where we were before this happened. So, you know, Jo Cox — if it hadn't been for the — she was assassinated because of this referendum debate and nothing else. If this referendum [hadn't] happened, Jo Cox would still be alive. That's the situation. We've already got a 37% increase in racial attacks — 57% increase in racial attacks in Britain, particularly on Polish people at the present time, because Polish people were demonised more than anybody else in the course of this campaign. It was a vile, absolutely vile racist campaign, and it got an effect.
05:15 It's always been known, as Luke said — it's always been known — playing the race card in Britain, [which] has an imperialist, colonial history, the people around that still fought in Kenya, fought in India. It takes a long time to do it, and it is linked up with, of course, social conditions and everything else, it is, but it's deep. We've got to remember that in '67, with Enoch Powell and his Rivers of Blood speech, and meat porters marching through London and other parts of the country in support of Enoch Powell, vicious support for Enoch Powell — that was a time of rising — rising employment, full employment, rising wages, easy to get houses. It was increasing — improving social conditions. Yeah, even under those conditions they were still saying they're taking our jobs. They were still saying — when there was jobs couldn't be filled — they were still saying they're taking their jobs.
06:19 So it is social conditions, and the social conditions created by years of austerity were ruthlessly exploited right across the country, particularly the north of England and so on, and in the de-industrialised areas. But it is deeper than that. And I think this point made in the Ashcroft survey of why people voted — I mean, it's an incredible thing to have to say, but this is what it said — a big majority of those who voted leave also saw multiculturalism and feminism as a problem. You know, so they've strayed on to really dangerous territory here, and they've pushed society back a long way.
07:23 And of course it's a European question. This is a huge blow, but it's a blow for Europe. Who were the first people? It was every right-wing populist in Europe that couldn't pipe up quick enough to support what happened and laud what had happened. It's a very, very dangerous situation. And again, as Luke said — sorry — you know, we've now got — I'm not sure there's going to be an election, I have to say. I'm not sure there's going to be an election. I know it's a popular thing, there's going to be an election, but, you know, Johnson has said today there will be no election if he wins, and it's perfectly rational. It's perfectly rational. And I would caution against — it's been said in here, but there is a kind of — I would caution against saying, you know, that Johnson is a bumbling idiot and he's out of his depth and everything else. He is not out of his depth. He is not out of his depth.
08:25 And they are going to put this together. And the point is — sorry about this again, but as Luke [said] — the point is the ball is now in their court, and what they're saying in the Tory leadership election, which will be launched tomorrow, is that it has to be a Brexit prime minister with a Brexit majority carrying out the will, in detail, of the referendum. In other words — and it was said, they've been saying it this afternoon — first of all, this is why I would maybe — I don't quite agree with Luke when he says they've started making concessions, they've started offering [?]. I would say I don't think, you know — they've got a hardline agenda that they're going to stick to, and there's going to be big reductions in migration.
08:56 And I mean, what makes that campaign so reactionary, and why it's so remarkable that people on the far left supported Brexit under these conditions, is that the thing that they were almost most hostile to was the most progressive thing about the EU, which is the free movement of peoples. That was what drove them all the way through, was the free movement of peoples, and that is what they're most pledged to get rid of. They will get rid of free movement of peoples. And it's also going to be — I mean, we should flag it all up — you know, we've been saying this government is going backward on climate change, for example, for the last year, and they have, but we ain't seen nothing yet in terms of going backwards on climate change. Absolutely nothing. The opportunity to reshape Britain is about to be put in the hands of a group of right-wing racist xenophobes — neoliberal xenophobes and climate deniers. That's what's — and they've got a mandate. They've got a mandate, you know. They're going to really drive this agenda through. So it's very, very dangerous.
09:57 And I think I'm a bit dismayed by what Luke just said about Jeremy Corbyn's post — tweet — after the referendum, because we have to be very, very careful about this question of anti-establishment. Anti-establishment is not just a left-wing phenomenon. It can be a left-wing phenomenon; at the moment it's generally not. UKIP was built on anti-establishment sentiment, right-wing anti-establishment sentiment. And this is where I think the Socialist Party is wrong, I think the SWP is wrong, I think Counterfire is wrong. They're all saying that there is a progressive anti-establishment basis to this vote. There is not. There absolutely is not.
11:00 And I think that Corbyn — and I have to say that, you know, in terms of these left organisations, the only thing they got wrong even worse than voting exit was their reason for voting exit. And their reason for voting exit was it would push the political situation to the left. This is one of the most bizarre political conclusions that I've heard for decades. Utterly and absolutely bizarre. They argued for weeks on platforms that a victory for a right-wing agenda would push the political situation to the left and open the door to Corbyn. This is astounding stuff to be able to say. So it was also obviously — so absolutely obvious that an exit vote would shift the situation to the right, because it'd be a right-wing victory.
12:04 And it was also predictable that the move would be made against Corbyn under these conditions, because when the situation shifts to the right, the right get going. That's what happens. The right get going, and the right have got going. And the hypocrisy in what they're saying about Corbyn is absolutely breathtaking. These are the people that lost the last two elections on a, you know, halfway-to-Tory agenda, and now they're trying to depose Corbyn in order to go back to that agenda, on the basis that he can't win an election on an anti-austerity agenda. And well, everything they say about it, Luke already said: Corbyn — the Labour vote was one of the best. I mean, you know, it was only one percentage point behind what the SNP turned out as a vote, only a little bit behind the Greens, what they turned out as an exit vote — as a stay-in vote.
13:08 So it's all very dangerous. I think that, well, I think what Corbyn needs to do, apart from what he's already doing, which is rejecting the attack and going to the membership and calling on people to join the Labour Party and win another leadership election — he has to put forward an alternative agenda for the exit negotiations. Because what's going to happen very quickly is that Johnson is going to come out, and no doubt several Tories will come out, with an exit — it'll be an exit manifesto. It'll be all the things that we've got to achieve in order to complete this exit, and it will be cut immigration, [inaudible] human rights, cut that down, all these kind of things. It's going to be a whole list of really reactionary stuff. And what Labour needs is the alternative: okay, we've got to negotiate an exit, but it would be this and this and this, and defend this and defend that. That's what is really needed.
14:11 And also it needs to grasp the nettle and put forward a proportional representation system. Because, I mean, Scotland will still be inside Britain by the next election, even in 2020, but after that Scotland probably won't be. And in any case, you know, if Scotland is still in in 2020 and there's an election and Corbyn is leading the Labour Party, then the aim should be for a progressive alliance in Parliament based on proportional representation. And then after that, if Scotland's gone, then there has to be proportional representation. Not only that, though: if he was to go for proportional representation this would draw in a lot of support of people that want to change the electoral system, because the legacy of the — the reality of the electoral [system] get worse and worse all the time. So that's our take on it. But it is a disaster on a European scale, and the left, as Luke says, [has] got to get organised and begin to fight back against it.
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