00:00 Alan Thornett: [I] woke up this morning to find my voice wasn't working properly, and indeed it isn't working properly now, so I hope that it improves a bit, because it's not a very pleasant voice. And so that's my first apology. My second apology is that I'm not Daniel [Tanuro], who was the speaker
00:31 originally advertised for this slot. Daniel is the author of *Green Capitalism: Why It Doesn't Work*, which you'll see on the bookstalls and so on. And I can't give the contribution that he would give — I don't have his scientific background, I don't speak English as well as he does — but so I'll very much make my own contribution. But he had to pull out at the last minute,
01:02 which was a problem. It's absolutely brilliant that we've got together, RS21 and [SR], and we're having this discussion on ecology and the ecological crisis. There's been a lot of discussions going on amongst the far left for the last six months or a year, and we've discussed many things. We've discussed feminism, and we've discussed the unions, we discussed campaigning — but this is the first time
01:33 we've got around to discussing the environment. And this is important, because in my view the environmental crisis is the biggest crisis facing humanity by far. It's bigger than the economic crisis, although of course it intersects at all kinds of levels with the economic crisis. So it's brilliant that we're having this discussion today.
02:05 When I looked at the title of this event — "Ecosocialism, Fracking, Climate and Revolution" — I was sort of even more pleased, because that is an incredibly ambitious title. You know, to set out to really address that title is a really ambitious thing to do. It involves things that stretch from all
02:37 the necessary campaigning that we need today, through to what kind of alternative society we want to create — the kind of thing that Natalie has been talking about in her contribution — to the issues of where does ecology stand in the programme for socialist revolution, and what role does ecology [and the] ecological
03:09 crisis play in the struggle for socialism and the overthrow of capitalism. It covers all that. So it's an incredibly ambitious title. I think the first thing to say is that the ecological crisis itself — the scale, and some of the things that Natalie has started to point out — the scale is enormous, and the
03:39 science is conclusive. I mean, we have to defend the science, but, you know, the science is conclusive. For us, it is happening and it's getting worse. The last decade was the warmest ever, and the last year was the warmest ever. And we're now only a few decades [away] from a rise in the average global temperature over pre-industrial levels which will lead to a feedback process in which the
04:10 whole process can spin, and is likely to spin, out of control. That's — this is why I say, you know, it's a big problem. It's a big problem. The global temperature is rising, the ice caps are melting, the sea level's rising, the deserts are expanding, water is becoming more scarce, agriculture is under threat, extreme weather events are
04:41 becoming more extreme and more frequent. Last year we saw super-typhoon Haiyan devastate the Philippines; we saw the hurricanes that devastated New Orleans and New York in the years earlier. And that's the shape of things to come. And there are even more scary things around as well — one of which Natalie has mentioned, the crisis of
05:12 biodiversity. We're now facing the biggest crisis of the extinction of species since the demise of the dinosaurs. And this is the biggest extinction since the demise of the dinosaurs, where half of the [inaudible] species are totally [inaudible], the way that things are going. We now know, for example, that the West Antarctic ice sheet is
05:42 destabilising, is likely to continue to destabilise. Nobody knows exactly when it will complete its process, but when that process is completed, that event alone will raise sea levels by 3.3 metres. Three point three metres from that factor alone. It is a huge issue that we're dealing with. And I think we need to look a bit here
06:13 about where this leaves us as Marxists, and where it leaves the Marxist tradition. I say this from the point of view that I think the majority of us here regard ourselves as part of the Marxist tradition, and we need to look at it from that point of view. And the fact is that traditional Marxism, or traditional socialism, in terms of the ecology didn't have a good 20th century,
06:43 and I think that we have a very big responsibility to make sure it has a better 21st century — otherwise it will become irrelevant. If it doesn't, it will become irrelevant. The fact is that, despite, you know, the remarkable contributions and insights of Marx and Engels, and the contributions made by William Morris, the fact is that much of
07:13 the left, including the Marxist left, not only failed to recognise the profound nature of the ecological crisis and of climate change — even towards the end of the 21st, [the] 20th century, [when] that was becoming more evident — but actually adapted to its productivist, adapted to its productivist language, for most of the time. Not everybody, obviously, but a lot did.
07:44 I worked for many years in a factory producing motor cars, and I regarded myself as a Marxist. We had very strong trade unions, even elements of workers' control, but we never ever questioned the product that was being produced, that I would now regard as weapons of mass pollution. We never questioned that, ever.
08:15 And we were in a position to. We could have done, we could have made all kinds of campaigns and proposals, but we never ever did. As far as we were concerned the working conditions were second to none and the wages were second to none, [and] we were happy with that. And this was a very big mistake. It was a very big mistake of Marxists in the 20th century. So there's a very big job to be done within the Marxist tradition
08:45 to win a real appreciation of the nature of this issue, and to win the Marxist left [?] as a whole to this. And for me the key is the concept of ecosocialism, which is why I was so pleased to see that the first word of this title was "ecosocialism". Socialist Resistance bit the bullet on this — not soon enough, but some years ago — and declared
09:19 itself ecosocialist, and we regard this as a fundamental part of our political identity. [But] what is meant by ecosocialism, what it is and why it's so important? People say, well, it's enough to say socialist. Well, is it enough to say socialist? You know, at one level you can say, well, it means you have to be red to be green, and you have to be green to be red.
09:49 Well, okay. And you could say that it's a declaration that the ecological issues are not an add-on, but that you have to make it fundamental to your work — well, that's true as well. And you could say it's a signal that you reject the capitalist logic of insatiable growth and the drive for profit, and that would be true as well. But actually I think the term
10:21 "ecosocialism" means quite a bit more than that. I think it affects the socialist project itself, and I think it affects the kind of society that we want to build when we're able to build a socialist society. And I think it's a declaration that we intend to build a new society based on ecological sustainability
10:53 and social equality, and the predominance of use values over exchange values. I think that is more fundamental. It's also a vision of a society that is built on the idea of working in harmony with nature, of being a part of nature and not being in conflict [with] nature, and not existing at the expense of nature. This, I think, is about [a]
11:25 very fundamental thing. It's also a signal that we don't want to see a socialist revolution take place where there's nothing left and we inherit a desert, where most of the species are gone and where we're struggling to even produce food because of [the loss of] the basic biodiversity that produces food, and all that kind of [thing]. It's a declaration of that. But it's also, actually,
11:56 even more fundamentally, I think it's a declaration that we will have to continue the struggle to defend the planet ecologically even after the socialist revolution. The idea that a socialist revolution would automatically resolve [the] ecological crisis does not make sense. It's true, of course, that it will make a huge difference — it
12:28 will open new doors, it will be a more rational society and everything else — but it would still be difficult to defend the planet even then. So we can't just wait for socialism. We have to — and this is where I would strongly endorse the things that Natalie said before — we have an absolutely huge problem. The fact is that, I mean, we've
12:58 got to change society and everything else, but the fact is also [that] people cannot carry on living as they are. That is a fact. You cannot produce and use the cars as they are, the aeroplanes as they are, the oceans [as they are] — it just can't go on. People and things are going to have to change. And it's absolutely right, and it can be — we have to produce a positive case for change, a different kind of society which is not
13:28 worse, is not more frugal [?], but it's different. But it's a very, very big job that we've got, because at the moment, in my opinion, we don't really even have an effective exit strategy from global warming in a timescale that will protect the planet. We don't even have that at the moment. So we need that, and we also need an approach which can win mass support — because there isn't any point in having [?] the exact solutions, that's fine,
14:00 because we've got to reduce carbon emissions by 90[%] by 2050. That's fine, but how do you get there, and how do you win the popular support for the measures needed to get there? This is the question that has to be asked. These are the big questions. And I think that if we can start to discuss some of these things today, it would be a day very well spent.
## Corrections
- **A written version of this speech exists**: "What is ecosocialism?", Socialist Resistance, 11 June 2014, in the archive mirror. It is a revised text, not a transcript, so it has been used only to resolve names, titles and figures; the wording above is what he actually said. - "I'm **knocked down** the um who who was the speaker originally advertised" → "I'm not **Daniel [Tanuro]**, who was the speaker originally advertised for this slot." Confirmed by the written version: "I am not Daniel Tanuro who was originally down for this slot." - "**Danielle** is the author of **green capitalism why it doesn't work**" → Daniel Tanuro's book. Both the captions and Thornett's own written version give the subtitle as "why it doesn't work"; the book is actually *Green Capitalism: Why It Can't Work*. The spoken form is kept. - "we've got together but **I was 21**" → "**RS21** and [SR]" — Revolutionary Socialism in the 21st Century, co-host of the conference. - "we've discussed **fabulous**" → "we've discussed **feminism**" (confirmed by the written version). - "**silver tofu pan** devastated the Philippines" → "**super-typhoon Haiyan** devastate the Philippines". Thornett's written version spells it "Haian"; the storm's name is Haiyan, used here. - "the whole process can spin and is likely to spend **under control**" → "is likely to spin **out of control**". A dropped negation that reverses the sentence into its opposite, and the most serious single error in the recording. - "the last decade was the **not almost** ever" → "the **warmest** ever". - "it means you have to be **went to the greed** and you have to **agreeing to be wet**" → "you have to be **red to be green**, and you have to be **green to be red**". The captions destroy a standing formulation of the ecosocialist case; the chiasmus is still visible under the noise. - "the term **leader of socialism**" → "the term **ecosocialism**"; "what is meant by **ecosystem**" → "by **ecosocialism**". - "**Associate's** Revolution" (twice) and "after the **Celtics** Revolution" → "a **socialist** revolution" / "after the **socialist** revolution". - "we **inhale** a desert" → "we **inherit** a desert". - "the working conditions were second to **London**" → "second to **none**" — the phrase is completed correctly in the second half of the same sentence. - "**marks** and Engels" → "**Marx** and Engels". - "adapted to its **product of his** language" → "its **productivist** language". - "an approach which can win **my** support" → "can win **mass** support" — the whole point of his closing argument. - "that event alone will **rise** sea levels by 3.3 meters ... from that **fact to** alone" → "will **raise** sea levels by 3.3 metres ... from that **factor** alone". - "**social resistance** bit the bullet" → "**Socialist Resistance** bit the bullet". - "I don't speak English as well as **the leader**" → "as well as **he does**". - "he had to **put out** for the last of the last minute" → "he had to **pull out** at the last minute"; "**book foot stands**" → "**bookstalls**". - "the **overtime** capitalism" → "the **overthrow of** capitalism". - Marked and not to be relied on: "to win the Marxist **left [?]** as a whole" (captions: "the Marxist code"); "is not more **frugal [?]**" (captions: "not more food"); "there isn't any point in having **[?]** the exact solutions" (captions: "having quicker start the Exact Solutions that's fun"); and "half of the **[inaudible]** species are totally **[inaudible]**", where his written version reads "Half of the species currently in existence are threatened with extinction".